My grandchildren's grandchildren will still be developing that piece of land.

[02:31]

"But on the other side of the coin, when it comes to the legal structures we've created for clients, we've never had a client lose a penny in 36 years."

[18:15]

"We've developed for since 2000, we've developed that property. We've maybe developed 10% of that property. It's it's 3,000 acres. We have a golf course. We have over I think a 100 homes, over 100 condos. You know, my grandchildren's grandchildren will still be developing that piece."

[05:05]

"I think at one point we served on 25 boards globally all around the world and we were talking about this at breakfast. You know the problems that one person would have would be similar problems that another person would have in a different country in a different business"

Full transcript

I'd like to invite up uh Joel Nagel to the stage now for the fireside chat. And while he's walking up, I'll read his bio here and then take a seat with him. Um Joel Nagel is an international tax and corporate lawyer, heads up a family office with global interests in legal, banking, insurance, real estate development, hospitality, and timber. He started his law firm in 1992 and currently represents high net worth and ultra high net worth clients and with international asset protection and estate planning corporate and legal structures including complex international trusts and foundations.

When I had the slide up about quiet wealth on the morning of the first day, Joel is a good example of that because when you read his bio, it sounds like he's an experienced attorney. In reality, he owns a pro football team. Um, essentially now part of a pro football league, thousands of acres of real estate. He's building a Marriott in Bise, already has another hotel in BISE, and has the largest Bitcoinbacked Marriott or real estate project globally that's been backed by Bitcoin.

He's been a diplomat, which only 40,000 have existed out of billions of people that have been alive on planet Earth. And his bio could be much more bold um if somebody else was writing it. So, let's welcome Joel up to the stage. Thank you. Right. So, uh, what else did I leave out of one of those two versions of your bio that you want to add?

It was a great bio. I don't know who wrote it. I don't think I actually wrote that, but it sounded good. Thank you for the kind introduction. It's an honor to be up here with you on the stage. Sure.

Great. So, can you give us an example of um how you help families with international um estate planning and investments? Sure. Well, you know, I always tell people, if you want to use the sports analogy, that, you know, we're the defense, right? Every most of the people in the room here are telling you how to make great investments, how to make money.

We're the opposite side of the coin. We're the defense. We're telling you how to keep what you already have. If you remember the older people in the room, the old EF Hutton commercial about it's not what you make, it's it's what you keep. So, that's that's what keeps us up at night. You know, we are really focused on asset protection, estate planning, generational wealth uh transfers, and you know, I'm honored to be in the same seat as uh Grant Cardone, and I agreed with almost everything he said, except one thing he said, which I fullheartedly disagreed with, which was about, you know, people don't really mind if they lose other people's money.

I promise anybody in this room that I would much rather lose my own money than any of my clients money. I have made bad investments. But on the other side of the coin, when it comes to the legal structures we've created for clients, we've never had a client lose a penny in 36 years. So that's, you know, that's our promise and I would go to great lengths to make sure that that's that I can say that statement my whole career.

Awesome. Thank you. Um, what do you think is core to your success that is really massively undervalued and overlooked by other people who maybe think how they know you became successful, but what do you know is really at the core of your success? I think it's a combination of one having, you know, we have a core expertise.

We stay in our lane. We get asked all the time, can you help with this? Can you help with that? So, we say no a lot. You know, we know our my background is as a tax lawyer. We moved into asset protection and estate planning and we do it at the global level.

So we work in, you know, I think last count was about 43 countries. We've created those types of structures. I was just at a conference in Palm Beach and a guy said, "Hey, can you set up a trust for me here in Florida?" I said, "No, I can't, but I can introduce you to somebody else." And he said, "Well, why not?

Can't you just help me? You're a lawyer." And I said, "Well, you know, we have our area. We focus on it. I think if you if you you know like Warren Buffett said, you stay in your lane, you protect your basket, that's really important and can and so you couple expertise with empathy and caring. We we care deeply about our clients.

We want to make sure that they're successful with whatever they're doing. And I think that intersection is what's made our law practice successful 36 years. And the law practice is what sprouted virtually every other thing we're going to talk about. Awesome. Yeah. I think one reason that Joel and I get along is he naturally represents what I think makes a lot of people like him super successful and we teach here at Family Office Club um because basically he does something that's more unique not the domestic but international trust and estate but also you built out the strategic platform of companies essentially.

When you first started as an attorney did you have this vision to build out the strategic platform with all these different components that help each other or that just naturally unfolded or Yeah, it's a great question. It's it's kind of somewhere in between. We we decided early on we wanted to be in our lane, but you know, a guy doing international work in Pittsburgh, like my phone wasn't ringing off the hook. So, um, what really happened was we had we had more time than money.

And clients would come to us and say, "Hey, we're working on this project, but we don't have money to pay you." So, early in my career, I just roll up my sleeves, said, "Oh, no problem. We'll help you anyways." And, um, that's that's how I, you know, I got exposed to a lot of different companies. A number of them were successful.

They asked me to serve on their boards. I think at one point we served on 25 boards globally all around the world and we were talking about this at breakfast. You know the problems that one person would have would be similar problems that another person would have in a different country in a different business um but you would see certain patterns emerging over and over. So just being willing to take on projects we we would do that not really proona but like more successbased projects.

We did them in things we were interested in. So if somebody came with something we weren't interested in, you know, well, they had to pay us. But if they came with something we weren't we were super interested in, they couldn't pay, we would we would do it anyways because we had more time on our hands. And those over the years have those seeds have grown into a lot of the like great businesses that we have today.

Awesome. Great. So um so you own not only a pro football team in Europe, but also and this is like American football, not European football, um but also like now a league as well. So how did you get into that area? Yeah, great question. Well, again, we tend to invest in projects based on the people involved.

So, the person that originally approached me was our attorney. Uh we live uh part-time in Austria. And our attorney, who's a tremendous guy, you've met him, Robin Lumston. He's uh special forces retired. He's a lawyer. He's uh very politically active.

He was a pro. He was a a quarterback himself and he was in the a point where he was taking over a team that had been around for a long time, about 50 years, the Vienna Vikings, the most successful American professional football team in Europe. And he said, "Hey, I'm taking this over and I'd really like you to be involved. I know you're a huge Steelers fan.

You've grown up around football. Would you help me?" And I thought it was just going to be this little passive investment, but you know, one thing led to the next to the next. Uh, one thing all the teams had in common was they all really disliked the league that we played in. The league was owned by a different investor group, one person uh, specifically, and the deals were all very, very one-sided.

So, I would show up at these team meetings, and the whole meeting was nothing but, excuse the French, but just a session about how much they hated the the league owner. And after sitting through a couple meetings like that, I'm like, well, why don't you guys do something different? And it turned out that December 31 this year, those franchise agreements were expiring. Uh, our league season ended in September.

So, we announced right after the season ended that we weren't going to play anymore in the in the old league, we started a new league called the American Football League Europe. And now almost all the teams that were in the old league called the European League of Football have joined our league. U, we also have added a couple expansion teams. Uh, you know, one of the cool expansion teams, for example, is from Monaco, uh, owned by the royal family.

We have, um, you know, we have teams that are owned by entrepreneurs like us, but there's also teams owned by super wealthy families. Uh, the Insrook team, for example, is owned by the Suvarskis, the, you know, the Crystal people. And it's been a great platform to get to meet and know other people. So, it was really just, you know, taking over the league was really just a, you know, solving a problem.

Mostly we just wanted to have a great league for our own team to play in. But now we see a lot of uh very interest good interesting things from an investment standpoint but also just like you said relationships are really important. So getting to know people all around Europe and you know seven different countries uh wealthy successful people they we all have one goal and that's to build American football in Europe. And fortunately with what the NFL is doing you know they have uh four five six games a year in Europe.

It's kind of like the circus coming to town. They show up and, you know, 50,000 60,000 I was just in Berlin at a game. 80,000 people showed up for that game, uh, the Indianapolis Colts game. And so, but then, you know, the circus packs up and leaves, but we are the the top professional product in Europe. So, we're very bullish.

You know, if you look, we we are very tiny compared to soccer in Europe, but we are the by far the fastest growing sport in Europe. I think uh the last uh numbers I saw were growing at a a year-over-year of about 33% a year terms of growth attendance uh TV viewership you know it's all just off the RTOR scale and the more the NFL does uh the better it is for us. So we're really happy with that relationship. Great.

Yeah. Thank you. We did a uh a sent to Millionaire Strategies event in Vienna in partnership with Joel and my daughter got to do the coin flip uh on national Austria TV to to kick off the game which she which she loved to do. So appreciate you uh doing that. Um you know you worked with some people that started in crypto, you know, you were saying this morning that got in at 50, they stopped buying at $10 cuz they thought that was ridiculously expensive.

Um and so many of them have become sent to millionaires, decimillionaires, billionaires. So any advice for people in the audience who would like to work with more crypto uh investor types and what you've learned working with them? Yeah, I mean well first of all crypto people are very down to earth. They tend to be somewhat you know anti-government anti-establishment people particularly if they were buying back then and they held it because most of the people in the room if you bought an investment and it went up 10fold 100fold a thousandfold probably most of us would have sold and taken some profits.

So the people that got in early that still have all their Bitcoin, they are special people. Um what I find and what we were challenged with as attorneys was helping these people to leverage their crypto without spending it. I had one guy say, "Hey, you know, I love Bitcoin more than I love my wife. So you can, you know, you can make a lot of suggestions, but you know, the one suggestion I don't ever want to hear is that I should sell my Bitcoin."

Not only the fact that if if your basis is 50 cents and it's trading at whatever $94,000, you're going to have a huge tax uh consequence. So, we've been at the at the cutting edge of trying to use Bitcoin, not necessarily as an investment, but as a tool, a financial tool. That's the part I think most people still haven't grasped. And we've worked with some really good people.

You mentioned the the Marat Hotel. We're building a hotel in Bise where, you know, the banks are really small. So getting bank financing in Bise was almost impossible. Getting North American banks to lend on a hotel in Bise was impossible. And so we were trying to figure out what to do. In that case, we we we got a very large Bitcoin owner to agree to pledge Bitcoin, but we were very concerned about the volatility of Bitcoin.

This was, you know, three or three three years ago. And so we also worked with a hedge fund in in Miami that came alongside and partnered with us and they provided these doomsday hedges so that you know Bitcoin is so volatile. So, if Bitcoin went down, which it did, I think when we did the deal, Bitcoin was around 40,000. And at one point, Bitcoin dipped under 15,000, which meant we our project was no longer collateralized, but for these doomsday um hedges that were worth, you know, $100 million.

And I'm telling my partners, why don't we just sell those uh hedges? We make a bunch of money. And they were like, well, you can't because it's it's what's propping up the, you know, the loan. Now, Bitcoin went back up, the collateral is safe, and the and the and the doomsday hedges are worth nothing. So, you know, that that's how that works.

But I view Bitcoin as something I want to hold long term. Um, it's for my kids, my grandkids, but in the meantime, I want to use it. I want to enjoy it. I want to use it to buy property. We've we've done that personally, our family. We've we've we've leveraged uh our Bitcoin to to buy properties around the world, and that's been a nice benefit.

So, there's lots of ways you can look at it. Uh, I also heard Grant say something about it's uh doesn't produce income. Not true. There's lots of ways. I'm sure a lot of people in the room know, but for those of you who don't know, uh, crypto in this day and age actually can generate a lot more cash flow than putting your money in a bank or brokerage account where you're just getting interest, right?

Got it. And speaking about banks, you own multiple banks yourself. Um, you know, why do single offices want to own banks? Because I'm I'm guessing it's up there more painful than RAIA. Way more painful. More painful than broker dealer is probably up there around going public owning a bank with all the regulations.

So what are the strategic benefits that really motivate you to own a couple of banks? Yeah, that's a great question and you're right, it is painful. I'm actually not that involved in the day-to-day operations, but one of my lingering jobs with our bank in BISE is to be the the chief person to interface with the central bank. And whenever they send me a note, it's usually not, hey, how are you doing?

Um there's usually something that they're, you know, upset about. We have to solve some issue or problem. So banks are highly regulated. Um in BISE we we have a that's the headquarters of our of a real estate development company. We have real estate projects in seven countries around the world. And we found it was very difficult for our North American clients to get financing for the same reason I mentioned about the Marad Hotel.

So we started this first a mortgage company back in the 90s. Um early 2000 we morphed into a bank. Um, my goal from day one was that it would not only um finance properties from our our development arm, but it would really be an economic development tool in the region. Uh, we keep that focus. We're involved in a lot of community things.

We have a annual toy drive that is coming up in in, you know, Christmas time. I think last year we gave away 1500 toys. We support a lot of things in the community. Uh our shareholders and our depositors will use the bank as a conduit for environmental things um protection uh we support um a bird sanctuary the the zoo in BISE we're just we're really involved in the community and so that part of it I I really like uh we were recently named the best offshore bank in the world so um happy about that um and one of the challenges in BISE is they don't really yet embrace crypto And we have so many clients in that space now uh that uh last year we we started another bank in in NEAs and um actually it's uh that was the main reason um there's there's some overlap but it's a little bit more cryptofocused.

Got it. Awesome. Um, when you look at your clients that are worth $10 million and then clients that are worth uh hundreds of millions or over hundred million, what do you think is like the one or two things that really separate them? Like why does some people um become very successful but around 10 millionish and others are worth hundreds of millions of dollars besides, you know, right place, right time where you bought, you know, Bitcoin 15 years before everybody else.

I mean, what what else separates them? Yeah, that's a super great question. Um, I think that sure, right place, right time, right business. Um what age they are when they hit that, you know, that curve. You know, I I've we've been sort of the I wouldn't say we're the fastest. We're not the slowest, but you know, I'm 60 years old to to get to where I am.

Um whether I'll hit the billionaire stage, I don't know. I guess depends how long I live. If I live long enough, I I'll probably get there. But, um I think the other thing is the mentality. Um somebody once described it to me as their success thermometer. And that is where are they where are they happy with their success?

I think a lot of people, you know, they build a business, they sell it, they get a 10, 15, 20 million exit, and they're happy to come here to Florida and, you know, have a nice home, sit on the beach, watch the sun set over cocktails. Other people, you know, that's just motivating them for the next step and the next step and the next step. I don't think I have a I don't know what I I I I don't think I have a ceiling on my success thermometer. I can't imagine ever being retired.

Um, and you know, I just I love business. I love serving people. I think at the end of the day, you know, one of my mentors told me early on, if you help enough people get what they want, you'll get what you want. And that's that's really the way we operate. We're helping everyday clients achieve their goals and objectives, and in the process, you know, it's it serves our interest as well.

Got it. Makes sense. So, you own uh thousands of acres of real estate. What are the top three things you've learned about investing in land for those in the room that want to start acquiring more land? Yeah, we we started investing in real estate in Central America in the '9s and quite frankly, we couldn't afford to play the game.

We were playing in Central America in say Florida or California or places like that. In fact, the largest piece of property we ever bought was in the year 2000. It was almost four miles of oceanfront property, pristine oceanfront in Nicaragua. And you know, super out of favor. People were like, "Oh, you know, are the Sandenas going to steal your property?"

I said, "Well, you know, Daniel Ortega was a 26-year-old revolutionary when he came to power. Now he's a 72year-old billionaire. I don't think he's going to mess with the status quo at all." We've never had problems in Nicaragua. We've developed for since 2000, we've developed that property. We've maybe developed 10% of that property.

It's it's 3,000 acres. We have a golf course. We have over I think a 100 homes, over 100 condos. You know, my grandchildren's grandchildren will still be developing that piece. So, getting in early, getting in at the right time. Uh same with our financial services.

We just see opportunities in other parts of the world that are less served than here in the US. Quite frankly, you know, we don't have the competition that we have here. And you know, saying we're the best offshore bank in Caribbean, in Central America, that's like saying we're the tallest I'm happy that we have that award, but you know, I'm not going up against UBS in Switzerland. I'm not going up against Chase in New York.

You know, I I have a certain group of banks that we're competing against and we do very well in our space. Great. Yeah. So, I wonder sometimes like how did the people who invested in Bitcoin at 50 cents have that courage? How did you have the courage to buy four miles of coastline in Nicaragua decades ago when there was like danger of military coups or you know uh corruption etc.

Is there any any insight on like oh I'm so glad I did that when most people would think you would cra you were crazy to do that maybe. Well first of all on the crazy part there a lot of people say we're crazy but you know we we we don't just go in without looking at the downside. I think again back to the defense and our firm we're focused on that a lot. So, for example, in Nicaragua, we uh we bought um insurance through the United States government and also through a private insurance, a title insurance.

And sure enough, we did have a problem with the one end of our property. Our um not our neighbor, but our neighbor died, and then their children tried to sue us and say that, you know, a big chunk of our coast belonged to them. Uh um First American Insurance Company fought that fight for 10 years and and won that for us. So, you know, we did what we could uh to protect ourselves, protect the downside, but you still have to have a little bit of, you know, uh, willingness to take that risk.

And the way that I've been able to do it and felt it is with friends and partners, not huge massive groups of people, but with a group where we talk about it, we debate it. What what what do you like, what do you like, and we also share the risk. So, you know, that property, that massive property I told you in 2000, we paid $3 million for that property. I came back from the closing.

My family was in uh Santael Island and I went straight to the vacation cuz they were already in the middle of the vacation while I was gone in Nicaragua. I came back, we were staying in this beautiful home on the beach. There was a lot next door that was like 100 ft by 100 ft. And I called the realtor just out of curiosity to see how much it was cuz my children loved it there so much.

It was $3.2 million. So 100 ft 3.2 million, you know, four miles of beachfront 3 million. Like, you know, you kind of you think about that there's only so much coastline and yes, there are problems to overcome, but it's worth it. That that's that's I guess my bottom line. You know, we we would go in other parts of the world where it's not as uh desirable as places in the US, but it's worth it over time.

Got it. So, um, last thing real quick without repeating any advice you've given so far, what's the most powerful insight or strategy you could leave investors or founders with here in the room? You know, I think um, try to stay in your own lane. Um, focus on what you know best. Um, don't compete with other people. There's always a temptation to particular as lawyers, but I think financial advisors and accountants, you know, your client comes to you and they have a problem.

It's really hard to tell your client, "Sorry, I don't do that." We we do that all the time. We say, "Sorry, we don't do that." And we lose business on the one hand, but on the other hand, we have lawyers. We have investment people. We have CPAs.

They refer their clients to us. Why? Because they know we're not going to steal their client. They know, "Hey, Joel's firm, they're just going to help them with their international stuff, with their offshore stuff, and they get to maintain the relationship." So, I think if you define who you are, what you do, and you really stay um grounded and on on that thing, whatever it is, then I think you'll be, you know, more successful than trying to be all things to all people.

Great. Awesome. Let's give Joel a big round of applause. Thank you. Thank you, Richard.